Ben Zander: (drawing a downward spiral) The little old ladies, the ones who like classical music. They’re all dying out. That’s a downward spiral conversation. 
Ros Zander: If you think about how we talk, we are generally talking about what’s gone wrong. And about what ought to be fixed. It’s a kind of conversation of “no possibility”: the downward spiral. It doesn’t lead you anywhere. 
Ben Zander: You see it in the stock market.  Of course, you also see an upward spiral in the stock market. Upward spiral and downward spiral are the same thing. Right? Whenever there is a winner and a loser, you have downward spiral thinking and talking.